Rick Warren responds to Christians who “don’t like going to church” in this way:
Life is preparation for eternity.
If you don’t like Worshipping God with other believers, then you’re not gonna like Heaven!
In Heaven, it’s all Praise, all the time. So, you might as well get used to it while you’re here. :D
I am going to spend trillions of years in eternity. This is the warm-up act – the dress rehearsal. God wants us to practice on earth what we will do forever in eternity.
Of course, a lot of what Christians do here in real life won’t be necessary in Heaven. A few examples: Brainwashing children, persecuting homosexuals, attacking Barack Obama as a secret Muslim, etc. You might be asking yourself, “What the heck is left?” Well, what’s left is often summed up in a popular saying:
- Happy moments, PRAISE GOD.
Difficult moments, SEEK GOD.
Quiet moments, WORSHIP GOD.
Painful moments, TRUST GOD.
Every moment, THANK GOD
Of course, in eternity, there aren’t difficult moments or painful moments.
- Happy moments, PRAISE GOD.
Difficult moments, SEEK GOD.
Quiet moments, WORSHIP GOD.
Painful moments, TRUST GOD.
Every moment, THANK GOD
So, your day in a nutshell? PRAISE GOD, WORSHIP GOD, THANK GOD.
…
Christopher Hitchens has some thoughts on the matter.
Everything I start to type comes out very sacrilegious, which I try to stay to one side of. I’ll try again:
I was once told that heaven will feel like “the best sex ever.” Yeah, I don’t even want to do *that* for an extended period of time.
I need to find a version of heaven that I might actually enjoy.
I’m so with Hitch on this one…the idea of spending an eternity worshiping and praising a god sounds like a hell to me. And how sad that Rick Warren and his followers believe that this life is a dress rehearsal for that kind of eternity rather than thinking this is their only chance to experience every great thing that life in this world can provide.
Michelle:
Really good point.
Have you seen “Invention of Lying”? We saw it over the weekend. In one scene, after the invention of religion ;) two men, (alcoholics and loners) stop trying to improve their lives; instead they’re just going to wait to die, for their “mansions” in Heaven – from the “Man in the Sky.” Of course, even if you’re not sitting around waiting to die, spending your *one* life consumed with another world that simply does not exist is really, really sad.
Again… bad theology is the basis of this issue.
1. Worship is much more than singing.
2. Heaven is not where we spend eternity (at least, as near as I can tell). Eternity is spent on the new earth. And that is exciting.
Clouds and harps for ever and ever? Ugh. No thank you.
“Farther up and further in” as C.S. Lewis so well put it? Totally.
~Luke
Luke:
Yikes. Spending eternity in Heaven is bad theology? There must be a scripture verse that I don’t know about ;)
I thought only Jehovah’s Witnesses believed in a new earth. I remember talking to one many years ago. She said that “Heaven” will be a new earth (or restored Earth?) that believers (aka JW’s) will repopulate. I brought up the idea that if people were both having babies and never dying, they’ll eventually run out of room on a finite planet… but, she assured me that God would work it out somehow, which is good to know. :)
Meanie:
And, think of the poor woman who has spent her entire life married to some mysogynous cretin “because God doesn’t allow divorce” only to have him chasing you around for sex – forever! Dang. :(
Meanie:
LOL – I have the same exact problem. :D
Well sure, once you decide to answer every human inquiry with a supernatural shoulder shrug that Father Knows Best, of course you’d believe that.
More and more I remember that bible verse about coming to Jesus as the little children do, and think it’s where the uniquely modern American brand of primitive evangelical theology went wrong. Little children do believe Father Knows Best so believe in magic and miracles and be delighted by the absurd because even dogs don’t ever die, they just get taken to the country for a happy eternity — by Dad.
I’m confused, JJ. Is “Father” God – or Rick Warren?
Because I do know that Father Warren is helping his children study for the test :)
Luke,
(An afterthought about, “There must be a scripture verse that I don’t know about”):
Or, is the Bible itself an idol to be smashed and outgrown (in pursuit of Lewis’ “farther up and further in”) along with the concept of Heaven and traditional theology? Because I’d actually be in favor of that, as you might guess :)
Killing the Buddha! ;-)
You guys need to read the new Dan Brown . . .
Lynn, I wouldn’t say that we need to abandon the Bible for C.S. Lewis… but I would agree that Lewis made some very good observations about things that we would do well to consider [smile].
As for the verse, I think Revelation 21 is a pretty good place to start. But it is interesting to me that I’ve never heard a sermon or attended a class on this subject. But I’m fairly convinced that eternity will likely be an extension/continuation of opportunities, not an eternal sing-along (unless that appeals to you, I guess [laughing]). Heaven will be a sweet place to visit and hang out in, but I’m pretty sure we’ll be doing things (of one variety or another).
~Luke
LOL at an “eternal sing-along” :) Yeah, that does sound pretty brutal.
So, I’m quickly scanning through here and I get phrases like “best sex ever” and “farther up and further in” and. . . what the hell? What’s going on here, Lynn? :)
Nance
Nance,
LOL – Oh, goodness. My blog is becoming rather raunchy, isn’t it? All we need now is to open the thread up to the topic of facial hair :) Meg? You-hoo, Meg?? :o
Luke:
Ah, now I see. I’ve never heard about a “new earth” from Christians either – until today, that is. :)
I also didn’t know that people will be able to “visit” the new earth. If it’s true, maybe a bunch of us could come hang out with you in your humungo mansion. :) We could do a potluck; we’ll bring hunks of charred flesh and you can serve drops of water. Good times. :)
Although,… not that I agree, mind you,… some people from my old church say, “once a Christian, always a Christian.” They say back-sliders and apostates still get to go to Heaven or new earth; they just get really crummy mansions as a punishment. Actually, were you reading my blog in April? I’m asking because I posted a picture of what I was told it’ll probably look like. :/
Revelation 21 — pearly gates and everything! Very pretty sounding. :)
Nance
Nance:
Yeah, “pretty sounding”…. UNTIL you get to verse 8!
Of course, there’s much speculation that believers, once beyond the pearly gates, will have the memory of non-believers erased from their minds. Afterall, what kind of sadistic sickos could possibly fully enjoy Heaven knowing that other human beings (who they claimed to love so much while here on earth) are being tormented in such horrific, gruesome ways. Only God the Loving Father will be able to pull off that trick.
… which makes me wonder if we’ll really be able to visit, afterall. And, what would be the point if they won’t remember us?
“It’s me. Boremetotears?? Don’t you remember me???”
Sad times. :(
btw,
Reading descriptions of Hell just now reminds me of the popular argument, “There’s no such thing as an atheist”; they’re just people who “don’t want to live by God’s rules.” That’s so lame. Would a sane person really barter away Heaven for, what?, sleeping in on Sundays?
A Sam Harris quote:
“The fact that my continuous and public rejection of Christianity does not worry me in the least should suggest to you just how inadequate I think your reasons for being a Christian are.”
Would I really call God a “sadistic sicko” if I thought for one second he existed?
Nope.
Again, I am reminded of the very different take Eastern Orthodoxy has on biblical literalism….they don’t. I was always told that heaven is “being fully in the presence of god” and that hell was “eternal separation” from him. Heaven is bliss because we are made whole and become what god intended us to be like and hell was torment because we would then know the truth of Christ and the pain of being separated from him would be our reality. They like to say “it’s a mystery” a lot and things like “while we sometimes can’t say what something is, we can with more assuredness say what it isn’t”.
I always find it interesting when scriptures are cherry picked. They like to imagine that the heavenly mansions are what they will inherit while ignoring that the lease agreement excludes nearly everyone.
I was going to suggest that cherry-picking is a reflection of the individual, but, of course, many people simply let others do their cherry picking for them. Regrettably, I did,… for a time; then my conscience took over.
…
Wow, Michelle. TGIF. With Girl in school now, I’m so tired by the time Friday rolls around. I think it’s the constant rushing around during the week that wears me down. So, how are you holding up? :)
Well, I am about to collapse. The public school running is one thing but loaded on top of DD’s already busy life. . . whew. .. and now DS has decided to get busier. Yes, I could get them both headed toward driving but I can’t afford that. Or the worrying. :) And DH may or may not survive the notion of his baby going to the homecoming dance tomorrow. You know, there will be boys there! :)
Nance
Yes, they’ll have to finish the brainwashing to eliminate any memory of us filthy nonbelievers.
OTOH, without these assurances, even if it’s only the weak “you’ll be in the presence of God” promise, who would put up with the rest of it?
So, some of the promises are about 70 virgins, some about pearly gates and jeweled walls (all about a walled in community — which only reminded me of the sterile gated communities we have around here) but they’ve got to promise the suckers something. Otherwise we’d have all these unemployed church people.
Nance
interesting that the cowardly (my translation says fearful) and *all* liars get thrown in with vile, unbelieving, sexually immoral murderers. So who does that leave on the inside? I mean really, who hasn’t been afraid or told a lie, or lied because s/he was afraid?
According to the version of the Bible I looked up online at Bible Gateway to read Revelation 21, heaven is a city that is roughly twelve thousand cubic furlongs in size and made entirely of jems and gold? and only people who overcometh, whatever that’s supposed to mean, are allowed in while everyone else burns?
He will wipe away all tears when he comes, so there’s that.
I really don’t get how reading the Bible can make someone believe it more. And if it doesn’t mean exactly what it says, then what use is it really?
The only way her schooling directly impacts me is getting up way earlier than I’d like and having to schedule my afternoons around her pick-up time.
Other than that, I have to say that our relationship has really just gone down the drain in these past few months. She has become too melodramatic (waaaay more than her usual), she’s become really awful to her little brother, she says really mean, hurtful things to me now. And my unschooling heart is broken: she’s now convinced that busywork and worksheets are a fabulous way to spend her time. :(
We have had a few moments here too, Michelle. I have told DD to cut it out and to speak to me civilly. So far, so good. My feeling is that there are teen things but they are no excuse. There is also tiredness and school stress but that is all self-imposed so also no excuse. And I’m doing the best I can so that should be met with at least politeness. And I try to let as much attitude as humanly possible slide. :)
Good luck! :)
Nance
Lynn: Would I really call God a “sadistic sicko” if I thought for one second he existed?
I would. If someone came up with solid proof that the xian god did exist, I would, I suppose, believe in his existence — what there being this proof and all. However, I wouldn’t bend a knee for that sadistic bastard.
I’ve got my integrity, you know.
Audrey:
Great point, Audrey. I should have put more thought into what I was saying. I completely agree that there’s nothing at all admirable about stroking the ego of a sicko sadist god in return for favors.
sam:
Wouldn’t it be funny if the ploys to get Bibles into schools worked, the kids read them — and laughed? I’d enjoy that. :)
Exactly. That’s when C.S. Lewis comes in handy.
Julia Sweeney has a funny bit about starting to really read the Christian bible as an adult and completely losing her belief once she did. . .something about Jesus cursing a barren fig tree.
JJ:
Even as a (cough) “metaphor,” it’s still not pretty. Jesus curses a fig tree for not having figs *out of season*? Duh. It’s like God cursing human beings for “Sin” that He Himself preordained. Did I mention that I think “God” is a sicko sadist? :)
Sadly, I can’t hear a reference to Julia Sweeney without citing my favorite part of her story: As a young girl, she “discovered the pleasures of her own body” while admiring the poster of Jesus on her bedroom wall :)
re: adolescent girls and mean, hurtful things
A thought: Can’t we blame some of what happens at this time on hormonal changes? :) On girls’ (universal?) need to differentiate themselves from mothers at this time? :) Srsly :) When I look at it in this broader context, what better sacred icon to smash than “Unschooling.” My daughter has been trying to push my buttons by trashing homeschooling for a while now. Unlucky her. I’ve already played these mind games with my older son and am not willing to go there again.
“You think homeschooling was a waste? Fine. So, you won’t homeschool your children when you’re a mom? Interesting. So, what would you like for breakfast?” ;)
Also, it’s really hard for me to know how many of my daughter’s rebellious moments are due to physical/bio-chemical (vs. environmental/peer-related) factors,… especially as I started experiencing some of what you (Michelle and Nance) are describing even before Girl started school.
Stay strong, Michelle. :) What you’ve done for your daughter hasn’t decreased in value one iota just because she’s challenging you.
In fact, having endured home/unschooling, DD has now made a choice to attend school. And when she marvels at the kids who don’t bother to do the tiny amount of work required to pass, I can remind her that she is there by choice, unlike many of her peers. When she is tired from this or that, same answer. If you want to do a bazillion things, you will be tired. Or you can rethink your schedule. Which you made yourself. But you don’t get to use me as a punching bag when it is tough. I’m there for other things but not that.
Nance
Nance: “…she marvels at the kids who don’t bother to do the tiny amount of work required to pass…”
Maybe we’ve stumbled upon a great way to motivate kids to do well in school: imprison them in homeschools during the early years. Then, when they finally DO manage to escape, they’ll be SO grateful and SO enthusiastic that… ;)
Yes! Our evil plan is complete! :)
Nance
Yes…we’re having a lot of “this is your choice to go…you don’t like it…for ANY reason, don’t go back”. But she keeps going back. She’s getting tired of the speech. I try hard not to give it.
And she’s used to me as a person enough now to know that I don’t like the whole system and *I* don’t choose to play their games. I don’t do PTA, I don’t volunteer, I don’t stay and have coffee with all the other moms and dads in the morning…I am not a team player. :) Thankfully, whenever I ask her little brother if he’s at all interested he gets upset and hugs me and begs me not to “make” him go. :)
As an aside, my ds17, who chose to go to high school last year also chose not to go back this year. His grandparents just gave him a birthday card that said “we are so sorry to hear that school was too hard for you. We are praying that God will help you cope with your difficulties.” We had a good rofl with that. How helpful and supportive.
Michelle:
[groan] How delightfully manipulative. Glad to hear your son has a good sense of humor about it. :)
Dear Grandparents — So sorry to hear that you have completely misunderstood who I am and what my life is like. I’ll be praying for you! Hugs and kisses. . . :)
Nance
Yeah….god is helping him cope with ignorant, condescending grandparents.